But Like, Which Comes First: Club Attendance or Club Engagement?

In this month’s episode, host Nick Taylor sits down with Giselle Holder, Club President of the Rotary Club of Maraval, Trinidad and Tobago, and Club and District Support (CDS) officer, Marni Nixon. They discuss how tracking club attendance might not be the soul indicator in determining member engagement.

Transcript

All Things Rotary: A CDS Podcast
1.02: “But Like, Which Comes First: Club Attendance or Club Engagement?”
Host: Nick Taylor
Guests: Giselle Holder, Marni Nixon
Producer: Sarah Steacy

[Intro Music begins]

NICK: Hey, Sarah!

SARAH: Hey, Nick!

NICK: I got a knock-knock joke for ya.

SARAH: Alright…let’s hear it.

NICK: Knock-knock.

SARAH: Who’s there?

NICK: Wah.

SARAH: Wah who?

NICK: Wow, aren’t you excited to talk about club attendance today?

SARAH: [chuckling] Oh my gosh, that was so terrible.

NICK: Totally! Today’s episode was brought to you by Article 10 of the Standard Rotary Club Constitution, which is on attendance.

SARAH: Oh! So, like, how club attendance and engagement are related?

NICK: Yep! In today’s episode we discuss this very topic with Club and District Support Officer Marni Nixon and Club President Giselle Holder from the Rotary Club of Maraval in Trinidad and Tobago. We discuss questions like, ‘is club attendance a good indicator of club engagement?’ And, ‘how can clubs adapt their bylaws to fit their needs?’

SARAH: Well I guess this really does deserve a “wah-hoo!”

[music fades]

NICK: Alright! Now, let’s meet our amazing guests today that are going to help us cover this topic. First off, we have Marni Nixon, our resident expert from Club and District Support. Marni do you mind introducing yourself and explaining a little bit about what you do on staff?

MARNI: Sure, Nick! Hi everyone, it’s great to be here on this episode! My name is Marni Nixon and I’ve worked at Rotary for almost ten years now, and I work on the Club and District Support team specifically with the Southeastern United States, the Caribbean, and South America. So, for those who aren’t familiar with our team, we focus primarily on addressing questions that are related to connecting leaders with resources, interpreting policy for everyday application, supporting club and district operations, and also helping club and district officers navigate the access they have to online tools. So, it’s great to be here today and I am looking forward to this conversation!

NICK: Thanks so much, Marni! And we’re so excited today to have our special guest, Giselle Holder from the Rotary Club of Maraval, which I’m sure I just butchered the pronunciation but, you know, we’re gonna roll with it! 

GISELLE: Not bad!

NICK: And it is from Trinidad and Tobago, on the show with us today, we’re excited for that! Giselle can you introduce yourself a little bit?

GISELLE: Sure! Thanks a lot Nick, and it’s really wonderful to be here! Happy-Late-New Year to everyone! As you said, I’m from Maraval – you did it well, and actually the hardest pronunciation is ‘Tobago’ which most people get wrong, so excellent job! I am the current president…

NICK: [overlapping] So I was going to ask real quick..is it? Is it..Toe-..because it’s pronounced like Toe-bay-go, right?

GISELLE: Yes, it is, so you actually did good! [laughter]

NICK: Just checkin’, just checkin’! Sorry! Continue on!

GISELLE: Wonderful! No problem, yes, so I am the current president of the Rotary Club of Maraval. I’ve been in Rotary for about twelve years and that’s including my time, wonderful time, priceless time as a Rotaractor in District 7030 and it’s really, it’s wonderful to be here - so I’m very glad for the opportunity to share with you guys!

NICK: Awesome! Thanks so much and we really do appreciate both of you being on the show talking about this important topic of club attendance and, kind of, club engagement, and how we can satisfy both things. But, real quick, Giselle can you tell us briefly how like - you mentioned that you started in the Rotaract program - can you kind of tell us a little bit how you got involved with Rotaract, what brought you in, what’s your origin story, so to speak?

GISELLE: Yes, I think I have a fun one – I hope so! I think, in all things in my life I tend to fall into it and so Rotaract was no exception. I went to Tobago, which is the other island that my country is made up of, and it was really just to go for a fun weekend. And, it turned out to be a Rotaract club of Tobago event. Right? So in that, I actually left that event looking forward to meeting up with a Rotaract club in Trinidad, which is where I would reside. And that was back in 2007 and that basically kicked things off, you know, really joining Rotaract for what we call in Trinidad a “lime,” which is really to go out and hangout. But staying because of all the really cool impact that we’re able to do, you know, in our communities and just the energy that Rotaract has is so energetic and wonderful and attractive and I was really, really glad to be part of it and to be able to stay for about ten years in it. [chuckles] No regrets, no regrets!

NICK: That’s fantastic! I love how, you know, you kinda went in with a different expectation and left with a totally different life that, you know, like you said ten years in Rotaract and then obviously you transferred so-to-speak to the world of Rotary and became…

GISELLE: Yes!

NICK: …a full Rotarian, right?

GISELLE: Yes, and also I transferred from different clubs, so my Rotaract club was the Rotaract Club of Port of Spain West, and in my transitioning I decided to just look around and see what else was out there. And, I fell in love with the Rotary Club of Maraval and they were very close to us so it seems natural to have gone to them and, literally, as I turned 30 I jumped aboard into the Rotary Club of Maraval and haven’t looked back yet! I get a little, um, some heckling from my old club members from the Port of Spain West – but we’re one family so it’s fine! [chuckling]

NICK: So the two clubs interact quite often?

GISELLE: Definitely! We’re actually geographically very close, so we’re within the same cluster of clubs, so we work together.

NICK: That’s fantastic! Are there other Rotaractors who have also joined the Rotary club, or maybe do both?

GISELLE: Not my club in terms of that big transition as yet, but definitely we are seeing a lot of transition happen and we’re very excited about that. That, I think, you know, is something you can’t really, you know, put a name to because it’s just something that’s supposed to be natural. It’s supposed to just feel comfortable to go to a Rotary club. But, it’s happening! It wasn’t happening fast enough, but it is happening now and that’s really encouraging.

NICK: That is awesome, that’s great to hear – I mean, even though we’re going to be talking about club attendance and club engagement, you know, growing Rotary is always one of the number one priorities. And everything we do is not just to, you know, make Rotary bigger but it’s also to let people know what Rotary does. And you know I -

GISELLE: [overlapping] Most definitely.

NICK: And make it so that, you know, obviously the end goal is to do more good. And, so, therefore if you have more people, more Rotarians, Rotaractors, whatever it may be, the more good in the world that you can do. And so that’s really the goal. I do have a question, though: so, when you switched from Rotaract to Rotary was there anything, like, specific about the club itself that called to you? That made you want to like, you know, because I mean in 2020-2021 we’ll say – for everyone, we’re all afraid of joining something for the long-haul. And Rotary is something that you kind of join for the long-haul, and so you’ve been with Rotary for ten plus years like, what is it about the Club of Maraval that really spoke to you?

GISELLE: Yes, so in terms of my experience as a Rotaractor, you know you have certain expectations of Rotary. So, we would have interacted with Rotarians along the way, of course. But you still have that distance, you know, you still feel like it’s ‘them versus us’ sort of thing. But, thankfully, I always maintained a very cool relationship with our sponsor club. And it was actually in the planning of our first-ever, joint Rotaract and Rotary conference, which Marni was there for, and where I actually I first met her in-person, that I got a view of all the Rotarians in our district as well as right-at-home because you’re kind of in this bubble, right? When you’re in your Rotaract club with your sponsor club, and you really don’t get to see everything. So, that really was an eye-opener and really allowed me to shop around, so-to-speak, and see the different ways in which clubs do things. And Maraval was really really different because they are predominantly female, though they’re not a ‘female club,’ all-female club, but they were chartered actually as all-female but then quickly after, you know, got men on board in their club. But they are just known for being very strong, very opinionated, professional - mostly women - who have a say and are able to command a certain authority. And it’s always was just like, ‘Wow, this..this exists?’ So that was very interesting, and I got to work with a lot of those Rotarians in the planning of that conference and, you know, to me it was just like, “Wow, I want to join this.”

NICK: Yeah, that’s so great to hear and, I mean, and this is like, the key of our conversations today, right? You just struck the nail on the head…or, the head on the nail [Giselle laughs]…and, um, or no the nail on the head, yeah. We’ll cut - we’ll cut this part out, don’t worry! [both laugh] But, this idea that… that club – you know, you were attracted and it engaged you. And it wasn’t necessarily because, you know, you were focused on attending or hitting certain markers, but you truly just wanted to be a part of – of that club, am I right?

GISELLE: Yes, you’re very right. At no point did it ever cross my mind that, oh my gosh, you know, it’s about, you know ‘ticking certain boxes’ or anything like that. It was just basically very natural, you know, what I felt at that point in time. Felt right to me, and as I said before, no regrets.

NICK: And as, and if I’m not mistaken, you’re the club president this current year, right?

GISELLE: Yeah, I think they like me! [both laugh] So I’m president three years later! Our members are really phenomenal, so it really was humbling with them voting me in as president, and actually nominating me in the first place. So, I really don’t let this opportunity pass me by in terms of being able to give back and ensure that we, you know, just keep moving from strength to strength.

NICK: Yeah, absolutely. And, I mean, as we mention in our intro earlier because of this episode being on club attendance and club engagement, I mean, it’s part of the Standard Rotary Club Constitution that every club is bound to globally, right? We have an entire section on attendance. Therefore, it’s important to attend – but, it’s also important to want to attend. And I think that’s where the engagement side comes from. How does your club, kind of view – like, what’s your club’s perspective on the attendance part of that?

GISELLE: Yes, we are – I would classify ourselves a more traditional club, so attendance is a big thing and it certainly was a big thing pre-COVID, you know where members would really want to ensure that any make-up meetings are recorded and, you know - not that anyone was gunnin’ for any prizes or one hundred percent attendance – but, certainly wanted to ensure that on paper it was documented ‘I was there,’ you know, ‘I was in this meeting,’ ‘I made up with this other club,’ you know, so that sort of focus definitely was there. But, I would say equally so we are very fortunate in that they also are there to make an impact, and to have fun, and to have a say, and maybe sometimes too much of a say [laughing] but they definitely are always involved and, you know, really want to be heard. And that, too, helps make the balance really really good, but we’ve moved away a bit from attendance recording. However, as a district now, I think, because of COVID-19, the district is interested in attendance. And I think that, to me, makes sense because we’re, you know, channeling new platforms and, you know, it’s just a strange time and I think that documentation is important. Right? But it’s not a stress of, you know, “You need to have sixty percent of your members stay,” or anything like that. It’s just more of a, you know, “Are you getting people to attend your meetings now?” you know, “Are you still seeing same faces?” And that, to me, is a whole new dynamic that we are working with now – that we really didn’t have that issue before.

NICK: Yeah, absolutely, and I want to get Marni’s opinion on this as well – but before I do, really quick Giselle, just a quick follow-up question to that. I love how you said you guys really, you went away from recording and you’re really focusing on the engagement side. Have you noticed a difference in attendance once you started doing that? Like, did it get better? Did it get worse? 

GISELLE: We maintained, sort of, our average. I think at the beginning it was a bit lower, but we climbed back up slowly but surely to our attendance average that mirrored our in-person. So, we did get, you know, we were able to compare that more-or-less that it was the same with our attendance and, at times, surpassing our in-person attendance.

NICK: Perfect! Now, Marni, you have a unique perspective where you cover clubs, literally, all over the world. And, I mean, in your regions. How have you noticed, like, what are the differences that you’ve noticed on this issue of attendance and club engagement?

MARNI: So, it’s interesting. There are definitely some overarching trends that I can see by region, from an anecdotal standpoint. I think flexibility is definitely a bit of a buzzword in some areas and yet, in conversations with people from some regions, they’ll tell me that if you don’t set any expectations on attendance, people simply won’t come [chuckles]. So I think that there’s a spectrum, of sorts. On the one end, you have some clubs that, kind of as Giselle described, at least initially, operate under a more traditional, or strict interpretation of attendance, very calculating, and really using attendance as a, sort of, indicator of engagement and, kind of, the sole indicator. And I think the challenge there might be if policies are too exhaustive or prohibitive for people, so some members feel a bit burdened by expectations. And then I think on the other end of the spectrum, sometimes you can focus solely on engagement and take more of a broad approach to involvement in the club beyond merely attending meetings. And the challenge sometimes with that can also be that if there’s an absence of any structure, or clear expectations for involvement in the club, that could lead to misunderstandings or maybe just some bias in allowing flexible options for some people, but not for others. So, I think that the middle ground that I appreciate when I see, and that I would advocate for, is this balance that Giselle has described: to view the two – attendance and engagement – as complimentary rather than these mutually exclusive ideas. So, attendance can be a useful tool or indicator, that’s what Giselle was talking about with the district being interested in that information, but it shouldn’t be a barrier to participation or to membership. So, I think balancing these sort of expectations around engagement for the good of the collective club, while also remaining flexible and adaptable because as we’ve been talking about with COVID, it’s especially important to have that sense of adaptability and to shift perspectives in the ways that you really think about, “What expectations are reasonable during this time? How can we make virtual meetings engaging and worth members’ time?” and “What are meaningful ways to still engage with the community.” So, ultimately clubs should be adapting their bylaws to work for their own context, and allow for the need to change when circumstances require it. So, the perspectives really run the gamut and the spectrum on this topic.

NICK: Yeah, and I think you’re totally, one hundred percent right, too. I think it’s getting to know your club and what works for your club. Some clubs might necessarily need that attendance marker to, you know, really keep track of and really focus on, and that really helps them. Other clubs might be all about engagement and, you know, just focusing on what the activities are, the service project, the speaker is and that’s really what’s going to drive the attendance. But as we mentioned, the end goal is having more Rotarians for more good. Marni, from Rotary International’s perspective – do they require anything?

MARNI: So, the attendance policy now is extremely flexible – especially over the last few years. Those who are familiar with the Standard Rotary Club Constitution, there’s an Article, – Article 10 [chuckling] for the people who want to go look that up – that talks about all the attendance policies. But, it’s extremely flexible in allowing for make-ups to be, you know, participating in a service activity or an event, going to a district-level event, something like that. So, there is a lot of flexibility inherent in the policies, themselves, and I think it’s also helpful to clarify that these are policies that are, sort of, set by the collective representative body of Rotarians around the world through the Council on Legislation which is, really a whole ‘nother podcast episode! But, those policies are meant to be, at least now, sort of a baseline. There’s provisions in the Standard Club Constitution that say, essentially, change your bylaws if this attendance policy doesn’t work for you. And so, on our Club and District Support team we advocate for that, we try to walk alongside clubs who want to change their bylaws to make them work better for their club. So, there are some baseline policies, but those can and should be adapted to a local context and the club’s needs – especially when it comes to attendance.

NICK: Thanks, yeah, and I think – I think that’s really great and I mean, like, the Standard Rotary Club Constitution is in place to be that cornerstone, that guide and, obviously, clubs can adapt their bylaws as-needed. And I think in theory it makes sense, and it’s like, “Oh yeah, it’s simple – just do that.” But, in practice it’s probably a little bit more difficult. Giselle, like, whenever you guys were creating your focus on, like, how you were going to focus on engagement versus attendance like, did it go smooth? Like, was it hard? Like, could you tell us a little bit about that experience? About your club’s perspective?

GISELLE: Yes, I think, and – I mean as a 2020-2021 president I have to talk about COVID, right? It defined my year [laughs]. So, you know, all these grand plans of how we would have done things, you know, stemming off of the, more or less, the signature ways we would normally engage our members. We’d go out, we’d – once again I’m using the word “lime” – we’d lime after meetings, you know, and that’s what we do. And then, COVID happened. Right? So, it spun everything on its head and we were, of course, mid-2019-2020 year going in to the new year, and it was just like, “Oh!” And we had never engaged in online anything, right? It was always in-person – so it was literally new territory. And our membership is a little bit older, right? Because we have, actually, a lot of our charter members we’re 25 – we’re 27 years old, sorry! So we have a lot of charter members, actually, still in our club. Right? And they are really our stalwarts in terms of in-person meetings, they are all there before meeting time, they are the ones leaving last, you know, so we have that. So, transferring that now to a new platform, an online platform, was – to me it was very scary because I naturally assumed we’re gonna lose everybody. You know? We’re not gonna do this, and we’re just gonna ride this out, COVID is gonna end in two months, and we’ll be back out there and it’ll be ok. And, that never happened. But, the good thing is – and I think it speaks to us – so, the engagement part, that our members made the effort. It was not easy. So that had to call on grandchildren, on children, and all these things to help them with the technology – but they made the effort. And they were all on! They were on, we use Zoom, they were on Zoom. We have a lot of issues, right? “Can you hear me?” That, you know happens [chuckling] – but, they made it work, and they were just as present as though we were there in-person. In fact, we – to me I think we’re having more meetings [laughing] than we would normally have because we just want to keep together, we want to see each other because here in Trinidad and Tobago, we’ve managed the COVID situation yes, but it’s still very high risk for, you know, that elderly population and we don’t want to risk anything. So we are still one hundred percent virtual meetings, and we’re gonna be, right? Certainly ‘til the end of this Rotary Year. So, even our interpretation of how we did our Christmas dinner, it was all virtual and we had a blast! Right? We have something called Parang here in Trinidad and Tobago, which is local music, it’s Spanish influenced – don’t ask me why, because we speak English – and, it’s specifically for Christmas and we had our Parang, we had our food, we had all our – and it was wonderful. So, that, to me, really gives me hope as to how we could keep up the engagement but still, you know, go things a little bit differently, you know still figure it out. But, certainly not leave anybody behind, you know, and I think – I hope it’s working [chuckles] – I really hope it is!

NICK: Yeah, absolutely! And you mentioned something that I kinda wanna ask a clarifying question on – you said “lime.” [Giselle chuckles] Is that? Is that, like, the app that you communicate with? 

GISELLE: Oh, no no no! [laughs]

NICK: Oh, Marni’s shaking her head…

GISELLE: Because Marni knows!

MARNI: I just learned this back in, yeah, in 2017! I mean, it’s like to hang out, to party, to have a good time…

GISELLE: Yes!

MARNI: …and it’s a term, at least in my understanding, it’s used all across the Caribbean region.

GISELLE: Yes, yes, so that is it. So we are – we could be considered liming [laughs]. 

NICK: So it’s, physically in-person, though, generally, is what it is?

GISELLE: Yes -

NICK: Ok!

GISELLE: - yes, yeah! So you go out – so, same way you, so if you go out to a bar: to lime. [laughs] To hang out together, yes. 

NICK: So it - 

GISELLE: Usually including food and or alcohol, depending on what kind of lime you want. 

NICK: Oh, I love that!

MARNI: But, you’re learning to lime online, right?

[laughter]

GISELLE: That we did! That we did! E-liming!

MARNI: E-liming! Yes!

[laughter]

GISELLE: We did it! We did it!

NICK: I love it! Yeah, so that’s great! I mean, first I love that, you know, I just learned a new word in “lime” and what it means – I’m gonna, with your permission, use it all the time now.

GISELLE: Yes!

NICK: But also, that’s just so fantastic and, I mean, I think a lot of clubs, like, Marni can definitely speak to this as well, like, had this same issue where they were afraid to go online, they were hesitant, and then they found out that it wasn’t too bad. But, now we’re kinda getting to that point where – [chuckling] it’s gone on a while, right? Like you said, ‘hopefully in two months COVID’s over.’ But, it necessarily – we don’t know when that’s going to end, and so is there anything that you do now, because we’ve been in this so long, to really keep engagement going? Like, have you seen a drop off at all?

GISELLE: Thankfully no, but we have noted through our membership committee – and just because you know everyone, our club is a bit small, we’re 31 members – so you know if someone’s missing, right? But we’ve seen maybe one or two members who have never made the transition, and what we’ve tried to do there, because – it’s not that they don’t want to, it’s just I don’t think it’s possible for them right now –  so what we’ve done is, you know, go back to basics: phone calls, we can’t really go across to them, but you know you reach out, you WhatsApp, you know we tried to do this other forms of reaching out to them and what we’ve done too is try to increase our feedback from members. So, in our typical in-person meeting, yes we’d have a lot of little cross-talk and stuff, but certainly in a Zoom meeting – it works well for us, I may not recommend it for all the clubs, but members usually get to say what they have to say. We have a five-minute slot in our meetings for that, [chuckles] but it’s never five minutes. But it’s a great opportunity to hear from them, you know? Who has just became a grandmother for the first time, you know. Who, you know, is celebrating something, an anniversary. You know, just still little things that help make the meetings personable and just help reconnect us, you know, because we are that family vibe and we don’t – we didn’t want to lose that on this. So, you know, we’ve also done our typical club forum but even that too, because of the online platform, to me, it’s more targeted and we really get more to the root cause of issues, you know, if any and we get to really trash things out, and talk things out, and I really appreciate this and I think our members appreciate this because it helps us really refine how we do this “online thing,” you know? And we even asked, for that same Christmas event, we asked if they wanted to try, because at that point we could have gone to restaurants, right? Dine. And, persons opted to do the online, right? Whether that was out of, you know, personal reasons, whatever. But, I think they trusted that we could still make it wonderful, and we could make it entertaining, and we could still have fun. And, thankfully, it worked out like that! So, even the ways in which we do projects – which is really at the core of all we do – you know, that was challenging, remains challenging. But, we have been able to execute some very significant projects right here in Trinidad and Tobago. We’ve partnered with a club in India – it’s the first time we’ve ever done that on their major Global Grant. And, I think if it was not for us moving to the platform, we would’ve never done things like that? And, it really opened us up. We’ve had clubs visiting us from, you know, United States, from Europe, you know it’s – it’s really wonderful that we could have brought the international side of Rotary to our club, you know, because a lot of our members have stopped going to Rotary International conferences and stuff, you know, because they’ve done it so many times before, but to do it now in this new and unique way I think it’s – it’s really a new type of engagement, so-to-speak, that we would not have been afforded if we were still in the in-person environment.

NICK: Yeah, absolutely! Finding that silver-lining is huge, and taking advantage of the situation that’s in front of us. So, I’m so glad to hear that your club’s been able to be flexible, and still maintain that engagement, and keep club attendance up, as well. I’m assuming there’s definitely gonna be people listening to this podcast that are gonna say, “Hey, I want to do this in my club! I want higher engagement! We maybe wanna change our bylaws.” So, Marni, if a club is interested in changing their bylaws, or even creating their bylaws – maybe they never actually created it in the first place – what’s uh…what would they need to do?

MARNI: That’s a great question, and I love focusing on what changes we can make cuz, as Giselle just kind of described when she was talking a little bit earlier, that this attendance, like, when they – when her club noted that people weren’t coming it was this indicator that maybe there’s an issue, and instead of just applying policy right away to somebody, they instead talked to that person and tried to figure out what barriers there were or the reasons that they weren’t engaged. And so, again, I think it speaks to that attendance can be either a tool or an indicator, but it – it’s not a way to use policy against people. And so, we’re looking at making changes to policy, again, the focus is on doing what works for your club. The only sort of guidance, or note, that we say is that it shouldn’t conflict with other, sort of, set policies within Rotary. But, there’s a ton of flexibility there for clubs to change. So, we have Recommended Rotary Club Bylaws, which is a great starting point for clubs, if they haven’t yet developed their bylaws or are just looking for a baseline example. And, in those recommended bylaws there’s a suggested procedure for changing the bylaws that said that you can do it at any regular meeting, it requires sending a written notice – which, written can be email – to each member 21 days before the meeting, having a quorum present for the vote, and then having two-thirds of the votes support the change. So, that’s our suggested procedure for changing your club’s bylaws – but, clubs could vote to have a different process for that. So, again, the emphasis on doing what works best for your club – and really trying to approach it as a collective opportunity for input from all the voices and perspectives within your club – so that what you’re developing and creating really supports your club’s vision, and culture, and who you want to be.

NICK: Yeah, absolutely. And, I think, just to add to that: if anyone listening does  have questions about the specifics of that procedure, always reach out to your CDS representative, or officer, or just simply email cds@rotary.org. Thank you both so much for taking the time to talk to us about this important issue. And, just real-quick, Giselle, as we wrap-up here: can you give us just one, last, final – what’s your final advice for any club that’s looking to improve their engagement?

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GISELLE: I think you can just listen to your members, because that is the most important thing. Those are – they are the hands that help you to get projects done. And if your members are not happy, if your members are not in-tune with what the club is about, then nothing will get done or, at least, it wouldn’t get done right. So, that opportunity to – whether it’s a club forum, or that it’s just a WhatsApp group, or open meeting, whatever it is, do it. And record it. And use your feedback, and make that actionable. It may not all be able to happen at once, but even if it goes into the next year, or the next year, it’s something tangible and represents your current membership – and it could be done at any time.

NICK: Love it! Well, thanks again for joining, Giselle and Marni. And, for listening to episode number two of All Things Rotary: A CDS Podcast. Stay tuned for the next episode coming out, shortly.

[Music swells]

NICK: Thanks for tuning in to today’s episode. As always, for any resources mentioned, please check out our Facebook page: @CDSTheAmericas. And, as always, please rate, and review, and subscribe. See you next month with a new episode of All Things Rotary: A CDS Podcast!

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